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Market Charter

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Market Charter

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:37 pm

Does anyone know the history behind the name Market Warsop?

A question was raised in a recent meeting that got me thinking. MDC have new policies regarding street trading, which means that stalls at our carnival and Christmas market, including charity stalls, have to pay £75 for a license to trade for the day. I put it to them that if the trader is there on the day of a market, they should be covered by that. I was told that Warsop is only granted the rights to a market by Mansfield as Mansfield have a market charter.

I may be very wrong, but I was of the understanding that we got 'Market' put back in front of Warsop to show that Warsop had a market charter!

Who are the experts on this? Come on people, get digging and give me some info. This could be quite significant.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby whitevanman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:46 pm

wikipedia wrote:The English monarchy created a system by which a new market town could not be established within a certain travelling distance of an existing one. This limit was usually a day's worth of travelling to and from the market, and buying or selling goods. If the travel time exceeded this standard, a new market town could be established in that locale. As a result of the limit, market towns often petitioned the Monarch to close down illegal markets in other towns. These distances are still law in England today. Other markets can be held provided that they are licensed by the holder of the Royal Charter, which tends currently to be the local Town Council. Failing that, the Crown can grant a license.

Note the bit i've made bold and underlined.
Mansfield definitely as a charter. So does Warsop have it's own or just a licence from Mansfield, this could depend on the distance specified in Mansfields charter.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Warsop Person » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:03 pm

Does this help?

Not sure if this applies to just rhe individual or if it passed at some point to another person or authority, it's a starting point in any case.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Tomas Drouty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:43 pm

I read that as Warsop has a market charter... it states they were probably given up.. but does that mean the chartered rights were given up or simply they decided to stop having markets?

If its the latter then .... we can presumably claim that Warsop has the market charter.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby moanersRus » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:28 am

So Is this another attempt of MDC screwing us over again?
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Wizard » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:14 am

According to Warsop Persons post, the right to hold a market was confirmed by King Richard in 1379, and granted by Charter 20 years later in 1399.
I would have thought that, although the holding of the markets were given up during the Civil War, the RIGHT to hold one wasn't given up!
This is about whether Warsop has a Market Charter, and just because no markets were being held for many years doesn't mean that the Charter has been removed .
Warsop should assume that the Market Charter status is still valid, and if MDC disagree, let them get the evidence to prove it has been removed.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Caz » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:12 pm

You're all saying exactly what I thought, but I do need some evidence of this before I act on anything. At present we operate our market under the Mansfield charter, but I don't know why this is and Mansfield have a clause that say's nobody can operate within a radius of 6.66 miles of their market. Where that comes from, I don't know, but it is standard practice. If we have a market charter, can we do the same? If that's the case, we've run out of room because there isn't 6.66 miles between both markets. #-o
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Re: Market Charter

Postby m8tey » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:24 am

Mansfield devil council. 66.6........
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Wizard » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:02 am

I think you need to talk to someone at the Old Warsop Society, as they will probably have much more information than any of us!
Isn't it about time that MDC stopped persecuting other local Councils for trying to do something that they can't be bothered with, such as trying to organise markets , functions etc?
Mansfield was granted its Market Charter in 1227, and Warsop was granted its Market Charter 172 years later in 1399.
Surely it would have been sorted out before it was granted to Warsop all those years ago.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Caz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:37 pm

According to the gazetteer of markets, http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/gazweb2.html Warsop was granted one only 12 years after Mansfield. Also, Warsop has more charters than Mansfield. One of ours is presctiptive, which I take to mean is continued as a tradition.

MANSFIELD 4538 3610. 1334 Subsidy �70. Market town c.1600 (Everitt, p. 475).
M (Charter) Mon; gr 1 Aug 1227, by K Hen III to men of Mansfield. Note on roll ‘vacated because surrendered’ (CChR, 1226–57, p. 54). Order to sh of Nottingham regarding the market, 28 Jul 1227 (RLC, ii, p. 194b). In 1230, the men of Mansfield accounted for 3�m. for having a market (PR, 14 Hen III, p. 78).
F (Letter Close) 2+fm, Peter and Paul (29 Jun); gr 3 Nov 1377, by K Ric II (CCR, 1377–81, p. 99). To be held at the town. Mandate to the sh of Nottingham to proclaim the fair.

MARKET WARSOP 4568 3677. In the 1334 Lay Subsidy, Market Warsop and Nettleworth were assessed together at �13. Both were ancient demesnes and were assessed at a tenth. Part of Warsop was assessed at �84.02; it was taxed at a fifteenth (Glasscock, p. 233).
M (Charter) Tues; gr 18 Oct 1239, by K Hen III to John de Lessinteyn. Note in margin reads ‘Lexinton’ (CChR, 1226–57, p. 247). In 1329, a Tues market was claimed by John Nunes of London. He stated that he had bought the manor with its appertenances (which presumably included the market) from John de Sutton. However, his claim was rejected and the liberties of the manor, including the market, were taken into the king’s hands (QW, p. 610 ).
M (Prescriptive) Mon; recorded 1327, mercatum, held by John de Roos (QW, p. 654). On 22 Nov 1337, a market was held by John de Roos, lately deceased (CIPM, viii, no. 182).
M (Charter) Sat, gr 25 Oct 1410, by K Hen IV to William de Roos of Hamelake (CChR, 1341–1417, p. 443). It is possible that this might represent a change of market day.
F (Charter) vfm, Peter and Paul (29 Jun); gr 18 Oct 1239, by K Hen III to John de Lessinteyn (CChR, 1226–57, p. 247). Note in margin: ‘Lexington’.
F (Charter) vf, Leonard in the Winter (6 Nov); gr 25 Oct 1410, by K Hen IV to William de Roos of Hamelake (CChR, 1341–1417, p. 443).
F (Charter) Sat and Sun next after Ascension (Easter dep); gr 25 Oct 1410, by K Hen IV to William de Roos of Hamelake (CChR, 1341–1417, p. 443).
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Wizard » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:25 pm

Well, that's made it clear then Caz :-k :-k
You would be lucky to find anyone who could read or write in Warsop almost 800 years ago :lol: :lol: :lol:
If Warsop was granted a Charter 12 years after Mansfield, why would it be granted, because Warsop was the same then as it is now, which is still within 6.66 miles of Mansfield?
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Re: Market Charter

Postby mikeC » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:14 pm

Well, let's move the market to Meden Vale, which is 6.7 miles from Mansfield according to the AA, and then see what MDC say :D
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Caz » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:59 pm

Yes, you've got a point there Mike! :wink:

In the days of the charters, the distance was defined as "within a day's walking distance, there and back". I'd say that would make both Warsop and Mansfield valid, given the state of roads in those days. Where the 6.66 miles came from I don't know, but it would have been a much later definition. That's not to say the original charters aren't still valid though, it may mean they just haven't been exercised or the newer laws challenged. I'd also think that once a charter is granted, it can't be taken away by anyone other than the crown. I really don't know, I'm just guessing. I'd like someone more qualified to look at this and I'd like more information if anyone can find any.
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Re: Market Charter

Postby Warsop Person » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:56 pm

I recalled this conversation some months ago when discussing the taxation MDC were proposing to apply to the stalls at the Christmas Market, although I don't know if they ever went through with it.

I have just noticed in the thread discussing the jubilee celebrations that they were trying to enforce it on the stalls at this event too and I have heard a router that they are trying to apply the charge to the stalls at the carnival.

Did the PC ever look into this or have they just let MDC get on with controlling and taxing everything that Warsop tries to put on?
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Re: Market Charter

Postby moanersRus » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:22 pm

Warsop Person wrote:I recalled this conversation some months ago when discussing the taxation MDC were proposing to apply to the stalls at the Christmas Market, although I don't know if they ever went through with it.

I have just noticed in the thread discussing the jubilee celebrations that they were trying to enforce it on the stalls at this event too and I have heard a router that they are trying to apply the charge to the stalls at the carnival.

Did the PC ever look into this or have they just let MDC get on with controlling and taxing everything that Warsop tries to put on?


they didi apply to the xmas market and someone came around checking the stalls from MDC
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